View Full Version : 91 Regal 3.8L No Spark
pioneerisloud
10-17-2009, 12:56 AM
Alright, so I've got an interesting problem here. Probably nothing you car guys don't know how to fix though. Please remember that I honestly don't even know how to change my oil, let alone fix what's wrong with my car now. However I have no choice, I have the Chilton, and access to a Buick Regal parts car (same engine)....and a few forums. So please....can somebody give me a hand (step by step in non-car-guy-terms)?
Okay, so here's what happened:
My bottom harmonic balancer died on me a few months ago. I took it to a local shop, and they fixed it for me for $300. When I got the car back, it was immediately not working right. After the car would warm up (about 20-30 minutes of driving), it would hesitate REALLY badly at about 2k RPM. I took it back to the shop, they looked at my Crankshaft Positioning Sensor, and said that it APPEARED fine. They also hooked it up to an OBD1, and said that my Check Engine Light was on because of my Cam Sensor.
Well, earlier this week a buddy of mine and myself decided to attempt to fix my radiator. It was leaking pretty badly. It took us two days, but we finally got the entire system flushed, and the leak is fixed, and I'm now running actual antifreeze in there (it was just water, hence why I wanted it fixed).
On my drive home from doing the radiator flush (after roughly 2.5 hours of running the car), the car was running like a champ. It was almost running like a brand new car again...no hesitation! After about 10-15 minutes of driving, it just randomly died on me!!! It acted like it ran out of gas or something.
So, today we decided to check it out. We grabbed a Chilton, some tools, and some gas and got to work. I'm getting fuel up to the engine FOR SURE. I've also got air going into the intake. However I am getting absolutely no spark at all. I've replaced the plugs, wires, and the coil packs all test out just fine so I didn't replace those. I'm assuming one of the sensors died, but I honestly don't know, and I don't know what to do from here.
So can somebody PLEASE help me out here? I'm sorry for the long winded first post, however I felt the only real way to get help was to post EVERYTHING that has been done to it already, and all the problems it has had so far.
So...anything?
EDIT: I forgot to add, I am supposed to be asking how to "pull the codes". I am assuming that means that it'll tell me which sensor is bad. So, how do I "pull the codes"?
cluffenstein
10-17-2009, 01:16 AM
you need an OBD1 scanner, their not cheap though.. Autozone reads codes, but OBDII only..
pioneerisloud
10-17-2009, 01:17 AM
you need an OBD1 scanner, their not cheap though.. Autozone reads codes, but OBDII only..
Yeah. I've HEARD that a local parts store (Schucks) might have one in the back that I could use at their store. The only problem is getting the car there....which I can't do.
cluffenstein
10-17-2009, 01:23 AM
I have the same problem right now with a friends motor (not in a car), and its a VERY frustrating experience.. I've worked on it for 2 weeks now (had no fuel to begin with, has no spark now..)
You could always ghetto tow your car there: chain, truck, have someone in the Regal steer it and keep it in neutral.. I've done it a few times..
pioneerisloud
10-17-2009, 01:28 AM
I have the same problem right now with a friends motor (not in a car), and its a VERY frustrating experience.. I've worked on it for 2 weeks now (had no fuel to begin with, has no spark now..)
You could always ghetto tow your car there: chain, truck, have someone in the Regal steer it and keep it in neutral.. I've done it a few times..
Yeah, its not getting towed there, lol. There's way too many lights, and the Regal has almost literally no brakes when its not running. I wouldn't want to tow it unless its being towed to a friend's house to work on it (its currently in a public parking lot).
lautinjr
10-17-2009, 01:40 AM
pulling codes on OBD 1 won't tell you anything it will only set codes when runing and it doesn't save them. You more then likely have a bad crank sensor or ignition module. There are other possibilitys but from what you said I would start there. the car had a cam sensor code you said. The cam sensor won't cause a GM to stop running but the crank sensor will. I would almost bet they installed the wrong balancer this could cause a faulty signal which would explain the drivebility problems after install and could set a code for cam sensor out of sync. The no start problem may be unrelated first check the wires to the crank sensor make sure you didn't damage them when you did the radiator job and make sure they make good contact with the sensor.
pioneerisloud
10-17-2009, 01:55 AM
pulling codes on OBD 1 won't tell you anything it will only set codes when runing and it doesn't save them. You more then likely have a bad crank sensor or ignition module. There are other possibilitys but from what you said I would start there. the car had a cam sensor code you said. The cam sensor won't cause a GM to stop running but the crank sensor will. I would almost bet they installed the wrong balancer this could cause a faulty signal which would explain the drivebility problems after install and could set a code for cam sensor out of sync. The no start problem may be unrelated first check the wires to the crank sensor make sure you didn't damage them when you did the radiator job and make sure they make good contact with the sensor.
That very easily could be. The Balancer and labor cost me $290 in total (I believe), and that was over $100 cheaper than the next cheapest local shop. The other shops were telling me the balancer was over $200 just for the part, whereas this shop got the part for just barely under $100. So I suppose they may have installed the wrong sized balancer. I'll start where you're saying though, it makes sense.
Is there anyway to check the ignition module?
That very easily could be. The Balancer and labor cost me $290 in total (I believe), and that was over $100 cheaper than the next cheapest local shop. The other shops were telling me the balancer was over $200 just for the part, whereas this shop got the part for just barely under $100. So I suppose they may have installed the wrong sized balancer. I'll start where you're saying though, it makes sense.
Is there anyway to check the ignition module?
your local part store should have a ignition module tester they can test it with... also follow the wire from the crank sensor upwards, it goes up so far and disappears behind the water pump right under the heater hose connector on the front of the intake. Take note of that area as there is even a TSB about how the wiring right at point will chafe on the corner of that metal block.
pioneerisloud
10-17-2009, 01:32 PM
your local part store should have a ignition module tester they can test it with... also follow the wire from the crank sensor upwards, it goes up so far and disappears behind the water pump right under the heater hose connector on the front of the intake. Take note of that area as there is even a TSB about how the wiring right at point will chafe on the corner of that metal block.
Okay, so from what I understand is this:
I need to test the wires around my coil pack (ground, hot, and the others for connectivity). I then need to inspect the wires coming from the crank sensor to see if they're shorting anywhere. If none of that is it, then its a sensor most likely (crank or cam)?
Okay, so from what I understand is this:
I need to test the wires around my coil pack (ground, hot, and the others for connectivity). I then need to inspect the wires coming from the crank sensor to see if they're shorting anywhere. If none of that is it, then its a sensor most likely (crank or cam)?
yes.. or you can pull the control module off and take it and have it tested..
*i also meant to ask have you checked the fuel pressure on it..
pioneerisloud
10-17-2009, 01:54 PM
yes.. or you can pull the control module off and take it and have it tested..
*i also meant to ask have you checked the fuel pressure on it..
Just checked Autozone to find out what it looks like. We'll take the ignition control module off after we've checked all the wires.
And no, we didn't really check fuel PRESSURE, however there is a lot of fuel coming out of the release valve at the top of the injectors when we press a screw driver into it.
Just checked Autozone to find out what it looks like. We'll take the ignition control module off after we've checked all the wires.
And no, we didn't really check fuel PRESSURE, however there is a lot of fuel coming out of the release valve at the top of the injectors when we press a screw driver into it.
the control module is the square piece the coil packs sit on top of... and you can have fuel at the rail and not have enough to run the engine, i think those required 45-55 psi...
pioneerisloud
10-17-2009, 01:59 PM
the control module is what the coil packs sit on top of... might not be enough fuel to run it though i think those required 45-55 psi.
Alright, not too difficult to get to it then. However since there is no spark at all, couldn't we rule out fuel system problems? I mean I'm getting fuel to the engine. It may not be "enough", but I am getting a lot in there.
Alright, not too difficult to get to it then. However since there is no spark at all, couldn't we rule out fuel system problems? I mean I'm getting fuel to the engine. It may not be "enough", but I am getting a lot in there.
yeah i would start with the ignition first...was just throwing some other ideas out in case that's not what it was..:D
pioneerisloud
10-17-2009, 02:02 PM
yeah i would start with the ignition first...was just throwing some other ideas out in case that's not what it was..:D
What about the Crank Positioning Sensor or Cam Sensor? Any thoughts on if those would be more likely suspects?
What about the Crank Positioning Sensor or Cam Sensor? Any thoughts on if those would be more likely suspects?
the crank sensor and the control module were notorious for going out..
*if the crank sensor was never replaced when they replaced your balancer id start with it first..
pioneerisloud
10-17-2009, 02:23 PM
the crank sensor and the control module were notorious for going out..
*if the crank sensor was never replaced when they replaced your balancer id start with it first..
That sucks, lol. I'll have to buy the removal and installer tools for the Harmonic Balancer. And buy a new sensor....yeah, if that's the case then I don't think this car's getting fixed, lol.
lautinjr
10-17-2009, 02:36 PM
It's either Crank or module cam won't cause a no start on GM but if the balance has a problem the sensor may not be reading the reluctor which could cause a no start.
lautinjr
10-17-2009, 05:09 PM
you shouldn't have to remove the balancer to do the crank sensor matter a fact they are usally just 1 bolt pretty easy. Although some of the newer 3.8L motors have 2 and one is behind the balancer. If you did need to remove the balancer the tool can be rented from most auto parts stores.
pioneerisloud
10-18-2009, 09:55 PM
you shouldn't have to remove the balancer to do the crank sensor matter a fact they are usally just 1 bolt pretty easy. Although some of the newer 3.8L motors have 2 and one is behind the balancer. If you did need to remove the balancer the tool can be rented from most auto parts stores.
I didn't know I could rent the tool. That might be handy. And yes, the crank sensor is behind or inside the harmonic balancer. I don't know what you would technically call it, but the balancer has to be removed to get to the crank sensor.
lautinjr
10-18-2009, 10:41 PM
ya i just looked it up and yours is external on a braket you may have to remove the balancer i'll check in mitchell tomorrow.
pioneerisloud
10-18-2009, 10:44 PM
ya i just looked it up and yours is external on a braket you may have to remove the balancer i'll check in mitchell tomorrow.
That would be GREAT if you could let me know how that sensor comes off! If its external, and I DON'T have to remove the balancer....that makes this 10x easier, lol.
pioneerisloud
10-18-2009, 10:56 PM
I also just checked into it at Autozone. The Crankshaft Position Sensor is only $28 :D. Now if I have to rent or buy tools to get that balancer off, that's going to put it to a point where its not worth fixing.
If it turns out to be the ignition control module, then I can EASILY get a new (used) one and its a super easy fix. To buy a new module, it's pointless as that's $128 for that part, and the car's not worth that much. I've pulled the old ignition module, and I will be taking it to Autozone or Schuck's tomorrow. I'll update this thread with the results (probably around 5pm PST).
pioneerisloud
10-19-2009, 02:13 PM
Well, the ignition control module checked out fine. So now what? Crank Positioning sensor?
Well, the ignition control module checked out fine. So now what? Crank Positioning sensor?
yup that's where i would start
pioneerisloud
10-19-2009, 05:45 PM
yup that's where i would start
What's going to be involved in doing a Crank Position Sensor? Will I need to buy the tools (puller / installer)? Or can it be done with just standard tools like a screwdriver or sockets?
What's going to be involved in doing a Crank Position Sensor? Will I need to buy the tools (puller / installer)? Or can it be done with just standard tools like a screwdriver or sockets?
you need to get a puller to take the harmonic balancer off...you can rent the tool from autozone/advance.. once that's off you can unbolt the sensor and replace it.
pioneerisloud
10-19-2009, 06:05 PM
you need to get a puller to take the harmonic balancer off...you can rent the tool from autozone/advance.. once that's off you can unbolt the sensor and replace it.
What about the harmonic balancer "installer"? Will I need one of those too, or just the puller?
What about the harmonic balancer "installer"? Will I need one of those too, or just the puller?
yes the same tool removes and installs it... it also has a 5/8 bolt that holds the balancer on
pioneerisloud
10-19-2009, 06:36 PM
yes the same tool removes and installs it... it also has a 5/8 bolt that holds the balancer on
Oh, ok. I saw on Autozone two different tools, a puller and an installer. Didn't know if I needed both or not ;). So I couldn't just do it with regular old tools, sockets, screwdrivers, and such?
Oh, ok. I saw on Autozone two different tools, a puller and an installer. Didn't know if I needed both or not ;). So I couldn't just do it with regular old tools, sockets, screwdrivers, and such?
nope you need to use the correct tools so you dont mess up the balancer...you can use the separate tools, they use to make one that would do both..
pioneerisloud
10-20-2009, 09:23 PM
Alright, so I talked with a local shop today. They told me that I could hook a test light up to my injector's connector. They said if it pulses, then the Crank Sensor is fine. They said if I have NO light, then the Crank Sensor is bad.
I did this, and I had light. But it didn't pulse. It did KINDA, but it....how can I put this? It did the EXACT same thing as the regular light under my hood did. It didn't really PULSE so to speak, but it dimmed when I tried to start it. What does that mean? Does this mean the Crank Sensor is in fact dead, or the problem is elsewhere? I don't really have a whole lot of money to be just guessing at parts here.
sounds like the crank sensor to me... the crank sensor doesn't have to go completely out for it to cause problems they can also get out of alignment and cause problems.. if the test light is doing like you said, sounds to me that that the injectors arent pulsing very much and the crank sensor is what pulses them...
i would also check the wiring for the crank sensor...
pioneerisloud
10-20-2009, 09:43 PM
sounds like the crank sensor to me... the crank sensor doesn't have to go completely out for it to cause problems.. if the test light is doing like you said, sounds to me that that the injectors arent pulsing very much and the crank sensor is what pulses them...
Well...the test like did EXACTLY the same thing as the light under my hood. Once the ignition was turned (not starting the car, just in the ON position), the light came on. When the car was attempted to be started, it did pulse slightly...but it was EXACTLY like the light under the hood did.
So its most definitely crank sensor? If so, could I get away with leaving the Cam Sensor alone, so I could use the extra $30 to do an oil change, lol?
do you have access to a ohm meter?
pioneerisloud
10-20-2009, 09:48 PM
do you have access to a ohm meter?
Why yes I do :D. It's also VERY accurate if I do say so myself (its one of those build it yourself multimeter kits). I can test resistance, DC/AC voltage, all sorts of stuff.
Why do you ask? I've already tested the resistance of the coil packs...if that's what you're getting at.
Why yes I do :D. It's also VERY accurate if I do say so myself (its one of those build it yourself multimeter kits). I can test resistance, DC/AC voltage, all sorts of stuff.
Why do you ask? I've already tested the resistance of the coil packs...if that's what you're getting at.
CRANKSHAFT POSITION SENSOR (DIS)
1. If a "Scan" tester is available, scan RPM parameter while cranking engine. If RPM is indicated, crankshaft position sensor is operating properly.
2. If "Scan" tester is not available, disconnect crankshaft sensor harness connector. Set ohmmeter to 2-k/ohm position, measure resistance across sensor terminals. Resistance should be 900-1200 ohms.
3. Set voltmeter on the 2-volt AC scale. Crank engine and measure voltage across sensor terminals. Voltmeter reading should be .1 volt or greater. If resistance reading is not as specified or sensor does not produce a voltage reading, repair faulty wiring or crank sensor.
pioneerisloud
10-20-2009, 09:53 PM
CRANKSHAFT POSITION SENSOR (DIS)
1. If a "Scan" tester is available, scan RPM parameter while cranking engine. If RPM is indicated, crankshaft position sensor is operating properly.
2. If "Scan" tester is not available, disconnect crankshaft sensor harness connector. Set ohmmeter to 2-k/ohm position, measure resistance across sensor terminals. Resistance should be 900-1200 ohms.
3. Set voltmeter on the 2-volt AC scale. Crank engine and measure voltage across sensor terminals. Voltmeter reading should be .1 volt or greater. If resistance reading is not as specified or sensor does not produce a voltage reading, repair faulty wiring or crank sensor.
Oh man, that helps out a TON! Thanks! I'll give that a go first thing in the morning. I'm just hoping I don't have to pull the balancer to be able to get to that.
pioneerisloud
10-21-2009, 02:52 AM
Oh yeah...there's another thing that I forgot to mention. Maybe it'll help diagnose the issue?
The night that the car died, and decided to no longer have spark.....the heater was NOT working at all. And normally my heater will burn your hand almost literally. Does that help any at all with a diagnosis?
Felipe the Ant
10-21-2009, 08:41 AM
Is there still coolant in the system?
pioneerisloud
10-21-2009, 09:40 PM
Is there still coolant in the system?
Oh yeah, PLENTY of coolant. We just did a radiator flush last weekend (the night the problem happened is when we finished that).
Update:
Ok, so we started to test the Crank Sensor per the instructions above. Pulled the plug off of it, and the wires just fell apart in my hands. All FOUR wires were touching each other.
So, we're going to find a junkyard car tomorrow, and pull the wires for the Crank Sensor, Cam Sensor, and all the way up to the ignition control module. Then we'll just splice those two sensors in at MY ignition module.
Question though....is there a chance that the Crank Sensor is still dead? I really don't want to have to pull that unless I absolutely HAVE to. The wiring I can handle easily. And I'm also going to pull the junkyard's CAM sensor while I'm there.
So...what do the pro's think now? Maybe its just the wiring that was causing the stuttering / hesitation at 2k RPM, and the random death?
Oh yeah, PLENTY of coolant. We just did a radiator flush last weekend (the night the problem happened is when we finished that).
Update:
Ok, so we started to test the Crank Sensor per the instructions above. Pulled the plug off of it, and the wires just fell apart in my hands. All FOUR wires were touching each other.
So, we're going to find a junkyard car tomorrow, and pull the wires for the Crank Sensor, Cam Sensor, and all the way up to the ignition control module. Then we'll just splice those two sensors in at MY ignition module.
Question though....is there a chance that the Crank Sensor is still dead? I really don't want to have to pull that unless I absolutely HAVE to. The wiring I can handle easily. And I'm also going to pull the junkyard's CAM sensor while I'm there.
So...what do the pro's think now? Maybe its just the wiring that was causing the stuttering / hesitation at 2k RPM, and the random death?
since all the wires were touching i would start with that first, might be where all the problems lie at...
*there's always the possibility that the crank sensor is bad...but since the wires were in that bad of shape i would start by fixing them.
pioneerisloud
10-21-2009, 10:44 PM
since all the wires were touching i would start with that first, might be where all the problems lies at...
That's what I'm hoping. Should I worry about the Crank Sensor at this point? I could care less about the Cam sensor, as I'm pulling that off the junkyard car. The Crank Sensor though is going to be a royal pain....and I can't get in there to test it with a multimeter either :(. Not enough room.
That's what I'm hoping. Should I worry about the Crank Sensor at this point? I could care less about the Cam sensor, as I'm pulling that off the junkyard car. The Crank Sensor though is going to be a royal pain....and I can't get in there to test it with a multimeter either :(. Not enough room.
i would start with the wiring and see how the car runs after you get all that fixed, if it still doesnt have spark after you replace the wires then i would change the crank sensor.
Felipe the Ant
10-21-2009, 10:49 PM
Oh yeah, PLENTY of coolant. We just did a radiator flush last weekend (the night the problem happened is when we finished that).
Yeah, there was coolant in it last weekend. But how about now? Did you pressure test it? You said you had no heat which could be related to your tinkering with your coolant system if there's a leak.
pioneerisloud
10-21-2009, 10:55 PM
Yeah, there was coolant in it last weekend. But how about now? Did you pressure test it? You said you had no heat which could be related to your tinkering with your coolant system if there's a leak.
I don't think a coolant leak would cause no spark though, and that's the main concern right now. I had a coolant leak before, but I patched it up, and it's no longer leaking. Didn't "pressure test" the radiator, but its got 50/50 mix in there, and its not leaking anymore. So yeah, there's definitely coolant in there.
So, if the wiring doesn't fix it...then the rest of the problem is most likely going to be crank sensor? That really sucks. I hope the crank sensor is fine...I'm not going to have enough money to do the crank sensor now, lol.
Felipe the Ant
10-21-2009, 10:57 PM
The crank sensor is most likely the culprit for the no spark. But it doesn't make sense for it to have anything to do with heat. I'm just throwing out some ideas.
pioneerisloud
10-21-2009, 11:01 PM
The crank sensor is most likely the culprit for the no spark. But it doesn't make sense for it to have anything to do with heat. I'm just throwing out some ideas.
Not trying to sound rude here, so I apologize if this comes out wrong.
But honestly, I could care less if my heater works at this particular moment. Even though its getting below freezing here at night, and I don't have a driver's side window.....I can live without the heater working. I need it to get spark before I worry about anything else. I don't know, maybe the heater core (or whatever its called) is going out. But right now, I need to get spark. I only said the heater comment....thinking that maybe it would help lead to the no spark problem.
I do still appreciate any input on the situation. Like I said in my OP, I am a complete car noob other than car audio. So this is borderline foreign talk for me, lol.
lautinjr
10-22-2009, 12:15 AM
Didn't I say check the wiring? Oh ya the first post I made 4 days ago. Just being a dick sorry. Seriously forget the cam sensor your car can run with out evenhaving one. The Cam sensor has one job it's to convert the car from Waste spark it will still have spark and fuel with out one in default.You can also chek the crank sensor at the wiring not just disconnected once you get it. That harness usually seperates at the pigtail so you shouldn'r need to wire it.
pioneerisloud
10-22-2009, 12:20 AM
Didn't I say check the wiring? Oh ya the first post I made 4 days ago. Just being a dick sorry. Seriously forget the cam sensor your car can run with out evenhaving one. The Cam sensor has one job it's to convert the car from Waste spark it will still have spark and fuel with out one in default.You can also chek the crank sensor at the wiring not just disconnected once you get it. That harness usually seperates at the pigtail so you shouldn'r need to wire it.
That you did ;). And that was the first thing we noticed when we pulled the fender well out today. I've already figured out how we're going to re-wire it...so I'm not too worried about that.
And that is a good point. We CAN check the crank sensor once we get the new plug and wires going to it. I didn't even think about that. If I update this thread later tomorrow afternoon, then the car's still broke, lol. If you don't hear from me for a while...its fixed.
lautinjr
10-22-2009, 12:49 AM
That's not cool let us know what happens. Do keep this iin mind. The crank sensor wiring is shielded and it has to stay clear from any heat sources it's best to use a oem wire harness. I have seen wiring done with generic wiring that the regular engine heat soaked through and caused interference. This caused the car to quiet when at OP and run normal when cold.Also any wrong wiring it can damage the ecu so be careful.
pioneerisloud
10-22-2009, 01:01 AM
That's not cool let us know what happens. Do keep this iin mind. The crank sensor wiring is shielded and it has to stay clear from any heat sources it's best to use a oem wire harness. I have seen wiring done with generic wiring that the regular engine heat soaked through and caused interference. This caused the car to quiet when at OP and run normal when cold.Also any wrong wiring it can damage the ecu so be careful.
Oh no worries. Here's what I'm gonna do.
Locate a junkyard car with the same motor (and model of car)
Cut ALL the wires off the ignition module of JY car (leaving 2" or so)
Pull the plugs off both crank and cam sensors from JY car
Pull the wires from the connectors at the sensors, and notice where they run
Install and run the wires in the same way in my car (with fresh loom)
Cut the proper wires off my ignition module (roughly 4-6" from module)
Splice in with solder, heatshrink, and loom
Plug the connectors on and go!
I don't think I missed any steps...but you get the idea. I'll be leaving enough wire on the JY car's ignition module so anybody that needs that part can still use it. And I will JUST be splicing into the wires that I need to for those two sensors. I also have a wiring schematic for that entire system, and it tells me what colors each wire is.
So no worries...I've got the wiring part down ;). I am definitely NOT a noob with wiring. Been doing car audio since I was 13 (23 now), and I've been re-sleeving computer power supplies even longer. So WORST case scenario, I'll splice in BRAND NEW wires right at my sensor's plug....and just make sure they're in the plug properly.
Either way.....as George Lopez says...."I Got Thissss!!!"
lautinjr
10-22-2009, 02:00 AM
Good deal
pioneerisloud
10-24-2009, 12:03 AM
Update!
The car is ALIVE!!!! Now, should I start a new thread with my new problem, or post it in this thread?
Update!
The car is ALIVE!!!! Now, should I start a new thread with my new problem, or post it in this thread?
glad you got your car going....i would start a new thread for your new problem..lol