CarForum.net - Car Forums, Automotive News and Community
Home Gallery Register Calendar Members List

Go Back   CarForum.net - Car Forums, Automotive News and Community > CarForum.net > CarForum.net News and Information

Reply
LinkBack Thread Tools
Unread 08-24-2010, 08:43 PM   #1
General Manager
 
Chipp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Miami
Posts: 296
Rep: 28 Chipp is on a distinguished road
Default Give a carpinion, win some money!

Being paid for offering your opinion is almost like being a consultant on a news show or something, right? Think of it like that - this could be your big break!

Tell us an opinion you've got about something that has to do with vehicles in some way, shape, or form. Keep it clean, though!

We're giving out three $20 prizes and one $40 prize, to be chosen randomly, just for posting here - but don't delay, this contest is only open until Midnight EST on Friday!
__________________
Hi, my name is Seth. I am an audio guy stuck running a car forum. :)

Like computers? Check out http://www.overclock.net! || Like dogs? Check out http://www.dogforum.net!

Chipp is offline  
Reply With Quote
Unread 08-24-2010, 08:58 PM   #2
Spah sappin' mah susp!
 
Kenny McCormick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Earth...I think
Posts: 3,271
Rep: 96 Kenny McCormick will become famous soon enough
Default

Hrm..I'll be right back. I have a ton of opinions to sort through.
__________________
Tired Iron ain't got no time to wear out...

My rigs:

1985 Ford F150 | 4x2 | 300ci OHV inline six | 4-speed OD manual | 310K | No power brakes | Running 100% - It hasn't driven this good in 15 years!

1984 Ford F150 | 4x2 | 300ci six | granny four | 3.55 rear end | 210K | Brakes shot. Rear drums are doing most of the work. Not fit to drive due to that.
1997 Ford Explorer XLT | 4.0L Vulcan V6 | 5-speed automatic | shift-on-the-fly 4WD | 210,000 miles | Running 95% - Needs brakes on all four corners + bald tires
1989 Ford F150 | 300cid six...again | 5-speed | 4x4 | 160K | Needs brakes done as well. Oi!

Kenny McCormick is offline  
Reply With Quote
Unread 08-24-2010, 09:05 PM   #3
It's Simple
 
Raptor22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chico, California
Posts: 2,555
Rep: 64 Raptor22 will become famous soon enough
Default

Awesome, I already do enough of that already so I'll see what I can do.
__________________
Its an MN-12 thing... you wouldnt understand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin McRae
"Straight roads are for fast cars, turns are for fast drivers."
[1989 Ford Blunderbird / 1985 Ford Conestoga Ox-Cart 4x4 / 2004 Ford Fairmont GT]

Raptor22 is offline Raptor22's Gallery  
Reply With Quote
Unread 08-24-2010, 09:29 PM   #4
Hammond Hand Luggage
 
cluffenstein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago IL
Posts: 2,704
Rep: 61 cluffenstein will become famous soon enough
Default

can it be on a car itself, and how many words?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by TestEcull
He may have ruined his cylinder walls and compression wings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wierdo124
Yeah. Should hold up fine, long as you don't drive like a primate.

cluffenstein is offline cluffenstein's Gallery  
Reply With Quote
Unread 08-24-2010, 09:37 PM   #5
Veteran Member
 
cs_maan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Chicago, IL (NW Suburbs)
Posts: 750
Rep: 18 cs_maan is on a distinguished road
Default

Do I post it here because I already have something in mind.
__________________
My Ride

Year: 2001
Make: Acura
Model: TL
Color: Dark Metallic Blue
Engine: 3.2L SOHC V6 with VTEC, 225HP/216 ft/lb torque.
162k Miles and still going strong!

cs_maan is offline cs_maan's Gallery  
Reply With Quote
Unread 08-25-2010, 12:03 AM   #6
Spah sappin' mah susp!
 
Kenny McCormick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Earth...I think
Posts: 3,271
Rep: 96 Kenny McCormick will become famous soon enough
Default



Let's see...I think I found my Carpinion.

Modern cars are marvels of technology. They can do all sorts of crazy things that, just 25 years ago, were the stuff of Formula 1. They have more airbags than ever, their safety cells are getting incredibly strong, and even a boring FWD commuter car can out-run a sports car of yesteryear. But this technology influx is also what makes them horrible vehicles.

When you jam the gas pedal down, it's taken for granted what happens. But did you ever stop to think just what makes that happen? Just 25 years ago, this reaction was fairly simple. Modest EFI or a carb handled fuel delivery. Distributors were commonplace. Most cars would still run with even a damaged ECU, and some would run with the ECU removed entirely. It is no surprise that there's still a staggering amount of mid 80's relics still lumbering down the road. They're so simple they're hard to kill, even when the bodywork is literally falling off the engine still starts, the trans still works and it still goes.

That ancient carb, though neglected for years, still mixes in enough fuel with enough air. That distributor, which is half buried by grease and dirt, still delivers the spark to the right cylinder at the right moment. Sure it may not be very efficient, sure it may not even be as efficient as when it was new, but it has over a quarter million miles and it still works. It's still doing it's job. It's so simple that there's nothing really there to fail. There's no weak link.

Modern cars, however, aren't so lucky. They have a computer for everything. There's one for ignition, there's another for ignition timing, one for cam timing, one for the transmission, one for the cig lighter, one to control the myriad of airbags, one to open the throttle, one to control fuel mixture, yet another one to double check that one on an emissions standpoint, and several that try to correct for an idiot driver.

Sure, all these computers sound good on paper. And when they all work properly they do make the engine very efficient. But they add many magnitudes of complexity that I think has no business under the hood. See, electronics are fickle little creatures. They don't like getting wet. That carb up there? It won't care. You can blast the damned thing with a pressure washer and it will still work. The fuel injectors that replaced it? Better keep them nice and dry, because if any water gets in that little connector you'll cook the ECU that fires them. And probably the injectors themselves. They don't like dirt, either. One stray grain of rust, which would pass through a carb harmlessly, will often jam up the highly precise ports. Or, it can wedge between the needle and seat, causing the injector to constantly feed fuel into the engine. This wouldn't be terribly bad if they were cheap, but those suckers range from 80 to 250 bucks a piece.

The overcomplexity doesn't quite stop there, however. We move on, to the transmission. Now, there is a very simple piece of kit available for this slot, one that's been around for nearly a century. It's called the Manual Transmission.

It hasn't changed much. Box, two shafts in there, gears ride on these shafts. Engine goes on one end, driveshaft on the other. Clutch on the flywheel of the engine interrupts power, driver activates/deactivates gear clusters inside and off ya go. They work wonderfully, they're highly efficient, they last a very long time and are incredibly bulletproof. Even a poorly designed one is still operable 200,000 miles down the road if it isn't abused. Mine, sitting pretty with 275,000 on it, still shifts beautifully.

However, this transmission requires the driver to control the clutch and the gear selection. Americans are lazy, so carmakers use the humble automatic instead. Okay, so they're a bit more inefficient, but they're still fairly simple. Planetary gearsets, hydraulic torque converter up at the front, bands and clutches to choose which gears activate, and we're good. Right?

Not quite. They weren't content to leave well enough alone. The modern automatic is incredibly complex. Needlessly so. Gone are the days when a hydraulic valve body with two cables, one going to shifter and one throttle, controlled the whole shebang. Nowadays you're lucky to even have a physical connection to the shifter. The shifting itself is all done electronically. This, again, seems good on paper. You can have plushy shifts when you want, yet tire-screechingly firm ones when you need them, you can control locking torque converters much better than with hydraulic systems, and in theory you can make them last much much longer. But here again we run into issues with the complexity getting in the way.

The transmission in most vehicles lies in a pretty filthy place. It gets pissed on by the engine, it gets coated by whatever the tires kick up, and sometimes even submerged in water for a time. It gets horribly dirty. This means you want as few holes in the case as possible, as few ways for these contaminants to get in as possible. The modern trans, however, has a spider web of electrical wires running down into it. Often, especially on Dodges, the ECU itself is even mounted right there on the bloody trans case. Every hole a wire has to go through is another potential entryway should it's seal leak. Not only that but if water gets into the connectors it could cause the transmission to munch itself alive when the ECU misinterprets things. Oops. Fickle things, those electronics.

The needless overcomplication doesn't stop there, though. We follow the power on through the system and get to the differential. Again this is a nifty little collection of gears, all mounted in a steel box. Pretty simple. Pretty damn reliable. Different applications require different diffs, but there's a simple diff for each and every one of them. Normal street cars can get a standard open diff, performance ones a viscous LSD, off road can get spools, lockers and the like. There's even something called a Torsen diff which exploits funny shaped gears to achieve a locker without the drawbacks when you don't need a locked diff. These all work just damn fine, nothing wrong with any of them.

But that hasn't stopped the invasion. Car companies these days are starting to electronify the humble diff, too. You see it on TV. They can now shift power from side to side, they can electronically disable a one-wheel peel. How these systems works is varied. Some tend to disable one-wheelers by applying braking to the wheel trying to spin. Some have clutches inside the diff the computer can activate as it sees fit. But again, they're all trying to overcomplicate something that's simple.

The main drawback of the "Activate individual brakes" system is that it's going to cook your rear brakes. Unevenly, too. What's worse, a one wheel peel or three working brakes? As for the electronically activated clutches in the diff itself....well there's a reason I didn't mention it's simpler cousin the clutch-type LSD. They both share the same weakness. Those damn clutches wear out stupidly fast. It doesn't take much doing to fry them at all. Now the normal, non-electronic one won't wear out that quickly for a normal driver, but I foresee the electronic ones cooking clutch plates extremely quickly. Let's just hope the carmakers made those clutch plates easy to change.

BUT WAIT! There's more!

The suspension system, too, is falling victim to the technology invasion. Gone are the days of a coil spring, shock absorber, sway bar and two A-shaped control arms. Gone are the days of two leaf springs, two shocks and a chunk of iron in the back. Nowadays we have to have hydraulics/pneumatics installed from the factory. Computer-adjustable shocks. Driver-selectable ride height. All sorts of needlessly overcomplicated crap. Even the springs themselves are getting replaced by pneumatic/hydraulic assemblies that the computer can stiffen/soften as it wishes.

Now, for an example of why this is bad, I point you to the late 80's Crown Victoria/Lincoln Towncar. These vehicles have a rudimentary version of the complicated system above. Specifically, a pneumatically assisted suspension designed to make the car ride smoother. Nowadays, however, all it does is make the car drag it's back end around on the ground like it has worms. The pneumatics just collapse. I've seen it happen to cars with less than 120K. Now, I will admit that it was a rudimentary system, but still. They did fail. It was a time thing, the elements back there simply degraded the airbags to the point they didn't hold air anymore. Modern implementations are no less susceptible to rubber dry rotting than those old 'Vics were.

That brings me to the various driver's aids. Back in the 80's and before, people were expected to know how to drive. They were expected to know the limits of their vehicle, know that if they screw up it will kill them, and they were expected to drive it accordingly. Nowadays that's just not the case. Cars have traction control, so you can just jam the throttle down without a care in the world. They have ABS, so you can tailgate the guy closer than ever before and not hit him. They have stability management, so you can go corner carving in an SUV. Why? We don't need any of this. Four tires, on the road, and a driver. That's it. That's all you need. Putting these driver's aids on the car only makes the driver feel like they're not responsible for how their car is driven. They throw wild inputs into it and expect the computers to compensate. Often this means they exceed what the computers can handle and they really screw up. The driver's aids actually make the cars less safe because they make the drivers take greater risks than they ever would if the car didn't have them.

Now we get into the interior. Here is where I feel a bit of tech is well applied. Airbags, for example, should be able to sense whether or not someone, or an object worth protecting, is in the seat and deploy accordingly. Airbags should not deploy at all if there's nothing to protect, or if their deployment would cause more damage than they would prevent. An example of this would be someone in a pickup driving down the road, all alone, and someone else crosses the double yellow and hits them. Only the driver's side airbag would deploy, since it's a frontal impact but only one person is in the truck. If they has a passenger, the passenger airbag would also deploy.

Computerized radios make it stupidly easy to sync to smart phones and do away with the need to dial/hold the phone while using it. They can even eliminate the texting-while-driving problem, by reading incoming messages and allowing the driver to verbally dictate a reply without ever leaving the wheel or the road. Seats that have driver memory can be programmed to individual keyfobs, so when a driver unlocks the car the seat automatically moves to where they put it. Air conditioning can be set to a temperature and automatically kick on and off to maintain this temp. There's seat belts that, in a crash, can automatically tension themselves BEFORE the person wearing them flies forward. And hell, there's a place for FLIR HUD's to aid in night driving, because there's times(Usually heavy fog/snow/rain) where one's headlights are all but useless.

Yet despite all the upsides there's still some places in the interior that should remain as stone age as a Model T.

Throttle. Brake. Clutch. Shifting. Ignition switch. Steering. These things are on my list of things I don't want computers mucking with. The throttle should be connected to the pedal by a simple cable. These don't generally fail, and when they do they give advanced warning before they stick. The clutch needs only be a simple hydraulic or cable attachment. Brakes should be simple hydraulic with a vacuum assist that, should the vacuum fail for whatever reason, still allow brake application. ABS, if it fails, should fail where you still have brakes(Most do, thankfully). Power steering should remain a hydraulic affair, none of this nonsense with electric motors. If a power steering system fails, it just stops assisting. You can still steer the car. If electric power steering fails it can lock the wheel in position. It can, if the computer spazzes out, even turn the wheel inadvertently. This can cause a pretty nasty crash.

The ignition switch should be a switch operated by a key. Acc - Off - On - Start, going clockwise. If there is a push-button start it should be supplementary to a key switch. On and off should still be decided by the position of the key, not by the button itself. This is pretty important in the event of a runaway, because the easiest way to regain control of a runaway car is by turning the engine off. The key being used to do so is pretty standard, it's been in use for decades, and is pretty instinctual among drivers.

I'm also not terribly fond of things like active lane management, adaptive cruise control and the like. But instead of typing up my reasons, Volvo has kindly provided the very reason I don't trust these systems in a test of one of theirs. See:

In that test, the car was driven at 30KM/h. The car was supposed to detect an obstacle and brake before hitting it at or below that speed, above that speed it would still try to reduce the impact speed. However, Volvo found out pretty quickly that trucks do a better job of stopping the volvo than their system did.

According to the comments on the video it failed because the battery was dead. Now, being Youtube, more than likely that guy has no idea what he's on about. At any rate it failed to do what it needs to do.

In summary I think cars are way too complicated for their own good and need, for the most part, to step back 10-15 years as far as tech goes. Go back to the days where ABS was the only driver's aid available and let the person decide whether or not they have a wreck.
__________________
Tired Iron ain't got no time to wear out...

My rigs:

1985 Ford F150 | 4x2 | 300ci OHV inline six | 4-speed OD manual | 310K | No power brakes | Running 100% - It hasn't driven this good in 15 years!

1984 Ford F150 | 4x2 | 300ci six | granny four | 3.55 rear end | 210K | Brakes shot. Rear drums are doing most of the work. Not fit to drive due to that.
1997 Ford Explorer XLT | 4.0L Vulcan V6 | 5-speed automatic | shift-on-the-fly 4WD | 210,000 miles | Running 95% - Needs brakes on all four corners + bald tires
1989 Ford F150 | 300cid six...again | 5-speed | 4x4 | 160K | Needs brakes done as well. Oi!

Kenny McCormick is offline  
Reply With Quote
Unread 08-25-2010, 04:48 AM   #7
Senior Member
 
xXxALLANxXx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 150
Rep: 11 xXxALLANxXx is on a distinguished road
Default

Driving while under the influence

If a person is caught driving under the influence, I believe the person should loose their license forever and encounter a good amount of jail time. From the way I look at it driving is a privilege, as the driver has taken on responsibility when getting their license to follow the law.

The consequences of driving the under the influence are pretty high for just not the driver themselves, but for other people as well. They can injury/kill anybody in the car, someone on the road, in another car, damage property and do tons more damage in other ways. Why should someones elses life be put into the hands of someone incompetent to follow the law in the first place? It shouldn't thats why I believe when people get caught drunk driving, and other illegal driving accidents then they should loose their license as they lost their right to drive a vehicle.


My short thing was just a ramble as a friend of mine was hit by a drunk driver the other day, and her excuse was I thought it'd be okay as I was only going a couple of blocks. That girl could of walked home and would of been just fine. But my friend had his car totaled and his left arm and ribs broken because of an irresponsible driver.
__________________
My current ride: 1998 Chevorlet Truck S10 P/U 2WD 4.3 SFI OHV 6cyl
Miles: ~140,000

Recently replaced;
Passenger side mirror
Wiper blade motor
Headunit w/ speakers
Water pump
Front brakes, rotors and calipers

xXxALLANxXx is offline  
Reply With Quote
Unread 08-25-2010, 08:27 AM   #8
General Manager
 
Chipp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Miami
Posts: 296
Rep: 28 Chipp is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cluffenstein View Post
can it be on a car itself, and how many words?
Sure can, and no guidelines! As long or as short as you like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cs_maan View Post
Do I post it here because I already have something in mind.
Yessir!
__________________
Hi, my name is Seth. I am an audio guy stuck running a car forum. :)

Like computers? Check out http://www.overclock.net! || Like dogs? Check out http://www.dogforum.net!

Chipp is offline  
Reply With Quote
Unread 08-25-2010, 12:22 PM   #9
Community Director
 
Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 7,602
Rep: 153 Mike has a spectacular aura aboutMike has a spectacular aura about
Default

Kenny, you should see the new Mercedes'. They'll detect if the driver is tailgating, and activate the brakes for you.
__________________
"He shouted: 'You've won! Didn't you know?' I didn't, and it's about the nicest thing I've ever been told" -Bruce McLaren, 1968 Belgian Grand Prix
Read the rules! | DO NOT REPLY TO SPAM
Daily Driver: 2006 Mazda 3 S sedan - 2.3L I4, 5 speed manual - 78k miles
Girlfriend's Car: 2013 Chevy Volt - 30k miles
Bikes: 1979 Yamaha XS 750


Mike is offline Mike's Gallery  
Reply With Quote
Unread 08-25-2010, 03:43 PM   #10
Spah sappin' mah susp!
 
Kenny McCormick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Earth...I think
Posts: 3,271
Rep: 96 Kenny McCormick will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wierdo124 View Post
Kenny, you should see the new Mercedes'. They'll detect if the driver is tailgating, and activate the brakes for you.
As nice as that is for the talgate-ee, I still don't like it. lol.

It kinda loops in with the volvo video though. It's a very similar system. Detects distance --> distance too short --> forces brakes on without permission. I could also see that causing accidents in traffic. I've been on the freeway, in my Ford, going 65MPH, and had no choice but be so close to the guy infront of me that I can't see his license plate over the end of my hood. Scary enough when you only have to worry about the driver randomly braking. But if I had to be behind one of those mercs? I'd be wearing it's trunk lid as a hood ornament the moment those computers decided the driver was tailgating.

I could also see someone exploiting that just to scam merc drivers. They don't even have to technically cut the merc off, they just have to slide in close enough to trigger the computers while their buddy tailgates.
__________________
Tired Iron ain't got no time to wear out...

My rigs:

1985 Ford F150 | 4x2 | 300ci OHV inline six | 4-speed OD manual | 310K | No power brakes | Running 100% - It hasn't driven this good in 15 years!

1984 Ford F150 | 4x2 | 300ci six | granny four | 3.55 rear end | 210K | Brakes shot. Rear drums are doing most of the work. Not fit to drive due to that.
1997 Ford Explorer XLT | 4.0L Vulcan V6 | 5-speed automatic | shift-on-the-fly 4WD | 210,000 miles | Running 95% - Needs brakes on all four corners + bald tires
1989 Ford F150 | 300cid six...again | 5-speed | 4x4 | 160K | Needs brakes done as well. Oi!

Last edited by Kenny McCormick; 08-25-2010 at 03:48 PM.

Kenny McCormick is offline  
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:21 AM.

Shogun Interactive Development Copyright 2015 Shogun Interactive Development. All rights reserved.