First car - CarForum.net - Car Forums, Automotive News and Community

emfinne · 05-19-2016, 08:21 AM

so
as my first car i want rear wheel drive, over 150 hp, mininum 4 seats and the budget is 30 000 dollars

do you guys have any suggestion?

enderx475 · 05-19-2016, 10:47 AM

BR-Z/FR-S/GT-86

Mustang V6

Genesis Coupe 3.8

Cadillac ATS/CTS

Many more options.

deltaolds · 05-19-2016, 12:34 PM

chrysler 300, dodge charger. genesis, thou i'd go for sedan, it is roomier, lexus gs, infinity G\Q\M, audi, mb, bmw are pretty much all either rwd or awd.

wisedriver · 06-08-2016, 07:13 AM

I'd personally go for a Dodge Charger.

Drivemaster · 06-22-2016, 04:26 PM

Might I inquire as to why the OP (and indeed everyone around here) wants rear-wheel driven road cars?

You're not going to get very broadside on the road, especially with modern traction controls.

**Mike** · 06-22-2016, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drivemaster

Might I inquire as to why the OP (and indeed everyone around here) wants rear-wheel driven road cars?

You're not going to get very broadside on the road, especially with modern traction controls.

Not with that attitude

RWD or AWD, depending on preference, are generally the best configurations for performance cars and driving. Simple as that.

Drivemaster · 06-23-2016, 04:33 AM

Well, professional racing cars are rear-wheel driven but that's because they need good acceleration above everything else. When the racing car pulls off of the line, a rearward weight transfer occurs and done well - will improve traction.

Coming out of a corner with a slight understeer gradient (racing cars have lots of that) means that there is a reserve at the rear so a rear-wheel drive car can pull out faster.

On the road, we have much less torque at our disposal and we are power rather than traction limited, and we usually cannot use it all anyway with a lateral component present.

I am all in favor of having a big performance envelope so we have more in reserve, but in this case the additional performance is incremental: It is wholly unobtainable to us in road driving.

There are also issues with driveability. It takes very good driving to coarce that last bit of performance off of a rear-wheel driven car. If the driver isn't skillfull enough to do that, it is again unobtainable.

Actually, on the road, it is in a front-wheel driven car where we can use power to manipulate the attitude of the car more.

And ultimately, it's weight distribution, suspension roll couple, polar moment of inertia and driver progressiveness that are the real name of the game.

**Mike** · 06-23-2016, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drivemaster

Well, professional racing cars are rear-wheel driven but that's because they need good acceleration above everything else. When the racing car pulls off of the line, a rearward weight transfer occurs and done well - will improve traction.

Coming out of a corner with a slight understeer gradient (racing cars have lots of that) means that there is a reserve at the rear so a rear-wheel drive car can pull out faster.

On the road, we have much less torque at our disposal and we are power rather than traction limited, and we usually cannot use it all anyway with a lateral component present.

I am all in favor of having a big performance envelope so we have more in reserve, but in this case the additional performance is incremental: It is wholly unobtainable to us in road driving.

There are also issues with driveability. It takes very good driving to coarce that last bit of performance off of a rear-wheel driven car. If the driver isn't skillfull enough to do that, it is again unobtainable.

Actually, on the road, it is in a front-wheel driven car where we can use power to manipulate the attitude of the car more.

And ultimately, it's weight distribution, suspension roll couple, polar moment of inertia and driver progressiveness that are the real name of the game.

I'm not going to argue - seems pretty pointless in this case and from what i've seen i'm not going to change your mind. Except these points -

Slight understeer gradient with racing cars - completely and entirely false. Optimum slip angle for the tire is about 10 degrees of oversteer - that's taught at any high performance driving school.

Modern cars are definitely not power/torque limited. When an accord has 250 horsepower, that's flat out false. We're traction limited.

What people ACTUALLY CARE about on the road more than all of this grip/power limitation stuff, is the feel of the car. Nobody wants torque steer, nobody wants a heavy front end that constantly dives, and nobody wants understeer. Also, nobody wants to fight with a transverse mounted engine shoehorned on top of an 8 speed automatic gearbox when it comes time to fix.

Drivemaster · 06-24-2016, 12:53 AM

Why argue what you can discuss...

Well, cornering forces do peak at ten degrees "slip" angle (it's a misnomer anyway) although it sounds like numbers for a road car with road tires and it also depends on vertical loads.

The peak also tends to be quite flat, with a range of slip angles offering different cornering force to induced drag (and aligning torque) proportions.

Anyhow, a slip angle exists regardless of whether the car is understeering or oversteering. It is an intristic characteristic of the rubber tire and it manifests itself through all four (or more) tires and therefore also through the attitude of the whole car.

You really need to delve into Pacjeka's book (or Milliken's, or Harty's) on car dynamics to go any deeper. It might be easier to get a summary by someone who is both an engineer and driving coach. The only one I've heard of in the US which holds that record is Ed Dellis.

An understeering car (where the front slip angle is slightly greater) has several advantages, particularly to the racing car. Chief amongst which is that the car is stable and controlled.

In an oversteering car, the response of the car to steering increases with speed, up to a critical speed where no steering at all is necessary to tackle a bend. Reaching that speed, even in a straight line, achieves the same result and the car just spins.

In a racing car, where one is going to brake quite firmly before and into the corner and apply lots of power mid corner, an oversteering car is going to be entirely uncontroled, especially in a transition between bends in altering directions.

There are also issues with brake bias, which in a racing car is more balanced, and would be deletrious to stability if the car hadn't a nice understeer gradient.

To assume that even the best of racing drivers can control an entirely unstable car is untrue. We are all human and we all have limitations. Many a racing driver lost a race (if not more) due to a poorly handling car.

The second advantage is that the understeer dynamic response is faster. The cornering forces on an oversteering car continue to build untill arrested, where on an understeering car they are only so strong as the driver requires through steering.

That means, that an oversteering car takes far longer to transition into steady-state cornering, and even more time to settle (because it overshoots).

An understeering car takes less time, and has less overshoot as long as the understeer isn't too pronounced. The racing car doesn't have that much, but what it does lack is yaw gain, because of the engine position.

Not too bad when you have monster slicks and wings, but if you get it wrong coming in, you are going head-on into the wall. I have seen it happen more times than I can count.

And finally - in a race car all that matter is corner exit. Trying to optimise corner entry has more to do with not being overtaken rather than achieving that last bit of speed.

Since they are rear-wheel driven, in an understeer situation the front saturates while the rear still has some reserve, so you can apply power immediately, although normally one waits to get the nose better aligned with the exit.

Anyhow, it's more of a physical constraint than anything else. Because all cars are front-wheel steered, the transient response at least is always understeer-ish. Any proper oversteer can only manifest itself after the initial transient.

As for the response of a road car - you've certainly got a point. To be truthfull I was playing devil's advocate earlier. Not least because I get a sense that it is a fashion thing to get a RWD because it's "sportier" by definition, rather than the rationale you described.

My main point is that it isn't what you drive so much as how you drive it. You can of course change styles to suit the car, but mostly you can find a very "universal" driving style that works for all cars and stick to it.

Don Pfau · 11-14-2016, 06:08 PM

I think Drivemaster is a robot ?? I doubt any human could be that boring, and long winded about a simple subject that doesn't help answer the original question at all ??

05-19-2016, 08:21 AM	#1
emfinne New Member Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 1 Rep: 10	First car so as my first car i want rear wheel drive, over 150 hp, mininum 4 seats and the budget is 30 000 dollars do you guys have any suggestion?

05-19-2016, 10:47 AM	#2
enderx475 Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 893 Rep: 36	BR-Z/FR-S/GT-86 Mustang V6 Genesis Coupe 3.8 Cadillac ATS/CTS Many more options. __________________ Current Car 2002 WRX Stage 2+ w/ Cobb intake, Cobb EBCS, Mishimoto performance radiator, Cobb 3" downpipe, Greddy Evo2 3" Catback, StopTech slotted rotors & pads, stainless steel brake lines, 17x7.5 Gold BBS Past: 2005 Volvo S60 R, 2003 VW Golf, 1998 Honda Accord

05-19-2016, 12:34 PM	#3
deltaolds Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 99 Rep: 12	chrysler 300, dodge charger. genesis, thou i'd go for sedan, it is roomier, lexus gs, infinity G\Q\M, audi, mb, bmw are pretty much all either rwd or awd. Last edited by deltaolds; 05-19-2016 at 12:40 PM.

06-08-2016, 07:13 AM	#4
wisedriver Member Join Date: May 2015 Location: Las Vegas, Nevada Posts: 56 Rep: 10	I'd personally go for a Dodge Charger. __________________ 2009 Ford Ranger XLT SuperCab 4Dr 4WD

06-24-2016, 12:53 AM	#9
Drivemaster Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 81 Rep: 12	Why argue what you can discuss... Well, cornering forces do peak at ten degrees "slip" angle (it's a misnomer anyway) although it sounds like numbers for a road car with road tires and it also depends on vertical loads. The peak also tends to be quite flat, with a range of slip angles offering different cornering force to induced drag (and aligning torque) proportions. Anyhow, a slip angle exists regardless of whether the car is understeering or oversteering. It is an intristic characteristic of the rubber tire and it manifests itself through all four (or more) tires and therefore also through the attitude of the whole car. You really need to delve into Pacjeka's book (or Milliken's, or Harty's) on car dynamics to go any deeper. It might be easier to get a summary by someone who is both an engineer and driving coach. The only one I've heard of in the US which holds that record is Ed Dellis. An understeering car (where the front slip angle is slightly greater) has several advantages, particularly to the racing car. Chief amongst which is that the car is stable and controlled. In an oversteering car, the response of the car to steering increases with speed, up to a critical speed where no steering at all is necessary to tackle a bend. Reaching that speed, even in a straight line, achieves the same result and the car just spins. In a racing car, where one is going to brake quite firmly before and into the corner and apply lots of power mid corner, an oversteering car is going to be entirely uncontroled, especially in a transition between bends in altering directions. There are also issues with brake bias, which in a racing car is more balanced, and would be deletrious to stability if the car hadn't a nice understeer gradient. To assume that even the best of racing drivers can control an entirely unstable car is untrue. We are all human and we all have limitations. Many a racing driver lost a race (if not more) due to a poorly handling car. The second advantage is that the understeer dynamic response is faster. The cornering forces on an oversteering car continue to build untill arrested, where on an understeering car they are only so strong as the driver requires through steering. That means, that an oversteering car takes far longer to transition into steady-state cornering, and even more time to settle (because it overshoots). An understeering car takes less time, and has less overshoot as long as the understeer isn't too pronounced. The racing car doesn't have that much, but what it does lack is yaw gain, because of the engine position. Not too bad when you have monster slicks and wings, but if you get it wrong coming in, you are going head-on into the wall. I have seen it happen more times than I can count. And finally - in a race car all that matter is corner exit. Trying to optimise corner entry has more to do with not being overtaken rather than achieving that last bit of speed. Since they are rear-wheel driven, in an understeer situation the front saturates while the rear still has some reserve, so you can apply power immediately, although normally one waits to get the nose better aligned with the exit. Anyhow, it's more of a physical constraint than anything else. Because all cars are front-wheel steered, the transient response at least is always understeer-ish. Any proper oversteer can only manifest itself after the initial transient. As for the response of a road car - you've certainly got a point. To be truthfull I was playing devil's advocate earlier. Not least because I get a sense that it is a fashion thing to get a RWD because it's "sportier" by definition, rather than the rationale you described. My main point is that it isn't what you drive so much as how you drive it. You can of course change styles to suit the car, but mostly you can find a very "universal" driving style that works for all cars and stick to it. Last edited by Drivemaster; 06-24-2016 at 12:57 AM.

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First car

06-22-2016, 04:26 PM	#5
Drivemaster Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 81 Rep: 12	Might I inquire as to why the OP (and indeed everyone around here) wants rear-wheel driven road cars? You're not going to get very broadside on the road, especially with modern traction controls.

06-23-2016, 04:33 AM	#7
Drivemaster Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 81 Rep: 12	Well, professional racing cars are rear-wheel driven but that's because they need good acceleration above everything else. When the racing car pulls off of the line, a rearward weight transfer occurs and done well - will improve traction. Coming out of a corner with a slight understeer gradient (racing cars have lots of that) means that there is a reserve at the rear so a rear-wheel drive car can pull out faster. On the road, we have much less torque at our disposal and we are power rather than traction limited, and we usually cannot use it all anyway with a lateral component present. I am all in favor of having a big performance envelope so we have more in reserve, but in this case the additional performance is incremental: It is wholly unobtainable to us in road driving. There are also issues with driveability. It takes very good driving to coarce that last bit of performance off of a rear-wheel driven car. If the driver isn't skillfull enough to do that, it is again unobtainable. Actually, on the road, it is in a front-wheel driven car where we can use power to manipulate the attitude of the car more. And ultimately, it's weight distribution, suspension roll couple, polar moment of inertia and driver progressiveness that are the real name of the game.

11-14-2016, 06:08 PM	#10
Don Pfau Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Fayetteville NC Posts: 25 Rep: 11	I think Drivemaster is a robot ?? I doubt any human could be that boring, and long winded about a simple subject that doesn't help answer the original question at all ?? __________________ 1993 Lincoln Mark VIII -Vortech 7psi, Meth Injection, Kooks, 3800 Stall, DD Valve Body, 4:10 w/Trac-Loc, 17" Cobra-R's W/MT Street ET's http://www.youtube.com/user/1210291341?feature=mhee